an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC (858 Views)
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Acclaimed Contributor
Torsten.
Posts: 23,128
Registered: ‎10-02-2001
Message 1 of 60 (858 Views)
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an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

There are already some related posts in

http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1397615

but I like to pin it to the top again, after I sent several feedbacks and mails without response.


The http://docs.hp.com was IMHO one of the best sources for manuals, HP-UX and hardware related websites on the net ever.

On docs.hp.com there was a structure, documents were sorted, very easy to find and most were stored in both, PDF and HTML format - simply excellent.


But now all the documents were moved and randomly scattered into BSC.


Now there are very long lists, hundreds of documents in a single table, not sorted on date, not sorted on topic, not sorted at all.

Not even easy to find.


Some are even totally unusable, e.g. the hp-ux man pages.

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DocumentIndex.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&taskId=101&prodClas...


Can someone explain the reason why making a good thing so bad???

Hope this helps!
Regards
Torsten.

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 2 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>Now there are very long lists, hundreds of documents in a single table, not sorted on date, not sorted on topic, not sorted at all.

Have you seen the Greasemonkey thread for the firefox browser?
http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1359692

>Some are even totally unusable, e.g. the hp-ux man pages.

Greasemonkey sorts these fine.

I'll pass your comments along.
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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 3 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>hundreds of documents in a single table, not sorted on date, not sorted on topic, not sorted at all.

One response I got back was that they were sorted. In fact, when I looked at your man page link, they all seem sorted by the title.

That seems strange since I though I saw some other manuals where they weren't by OS version.
(Since the monkey is frowning, I don't think he is sorting it. :-)
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Acclaimed Contributor
Torsten.
Posts: 23,128
Registered: ‎10-02-2001
Message 4 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Thank you for your comments Dennis.

Let's take a look at a randomly chosen document about man pages and let me know if it is usable:


http://bizsupport2.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01921351/c01921351.pdf

The table of contents is not even linked. There are no page numbers in table of contents!
Try to find the "logins" man page for example.


Take a look at this table now:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DocumentIndex.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&taskId=101&prodClas...

All the "HP-UX 11i v2 Read Before Installing or Updating" and the release notes for example are totally unsorted.


Now try to find the latest, if you don't know what the latest should be!



On docs.hp.com everything was sorted on topic, e.g. LVM documents.

Try to find them here! Impossible!



Hope this helps!
Regards
Torsten.

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 5 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>Let's take a look at a randomly chosen document about man pages and let me know if it is usable:

(You have switched topics. From the pages that point to the documents, to the documents themselves.)

(It is only usable if you print it out and bind it like a book. :-)
Basically, what they did is just took the hardcopy PDF and put it on the web.

>the "HP-UX 11i v2 Read Before Installing or Updating" and the release notes for example are totally unsorted.

You mean sorted in a naive alpha order? Instead of inserting 200403 for Mar 2004?

>On docs.hp.com everything was sorted on topic, e.g. LVM documents.

Yes. They had more sub-tables by topic.

I'll pass your new input on, I knew I had see some thing messed up before.
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Acclaimed Contributor
Torsten.
Posts: 23,128
Registered: ‎10-02-2001
Message 6 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>> You mean sorted in a naive alpha order? Instead of inserting 200403 for Mar 2004?


From the table:

HP System Management Homepage 3.1.0 Release Notes (466303-007, March 2010)
15 Mar 2010 PDF 0.31 56.6K: <1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, December 2005
22 Jan 2010 PDF 0.26 56.6K: <1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, December 2006
25 Jan 2010 PDF 0.43 56.6K: 1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, December 2007
2 Nov 2009 PDF 0.49 56.6K: 1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, June 2006
30 Oct 2009 PDF 0.31 56.6K: <1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, June 2007
25 Jan 2010 PDF 0.48 56.6K: 1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, March 2008
31 Oct 2009 PDF 0.50 56.6K: 1m
512K: <1m
HP System Management Homepage Release Notes, March 2009
31 Oct 2009 PDF 0.36 56.6K: <1m
512K: <1m


It's not ordered on date or version, maybe somehow alphabeticaly.

Hope this helps!
Regards
Torsten.

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 7 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>It's not ordered on date or version, maybe somehow alphabetically.

I did get a "good feedback" comment about the unhelpful naive ordering.
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 8 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Hi:

I'm going to chime in to this again in the hopes that some of the blunders that have been made will get rectified SOON.

As I asked before, what happened to offering a choice of HTML and PDF? Particularly for the manpages it was very convenient to have an HTML page which acted as a table of contents; where each entry was its own URL to a specific manpage.

The PDF files lack hyperlinks which could be used to jump from an entry in the table of contents to the desired page. There aren't even page numbers associated with the table of contents entries. This alone would offer a jump mechanism.

The manpages collection represent the most egregious lack of navigation since unlike a reference guide one is invariably looking at a specific command, file, library or system call and not a larger "how-to" or conceptual guide.

To add to this insult, the download of a relatively large PDF file just to be able to access a particular manpage (let alone jump to another manpage as cited by the first) is slow as frozen molasses.

As an aside, I used to think that Adobe Reader was quick, but I find that using Apple Mac's 'Preview' beats that hands down. Then again, a Mac is a branded UNIX :-)

Did anyone try to *USE* this before they foisted this on the community?

When can we expect to see PDF files with embedded hyperlinks?

When can we see HTML documents side-by-side with PDF ones?

Regards!

...JRF...
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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 9 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>JRF: I'm going to chime in to this again

I think I've already raised these concerns from the other thread?

>When can we expect to see PDF files with embedded hyperlinks?

When this was first proposed, I didn't even know you could do this. But I was shown an example.

>When can we see HTML documents side-by-side with PDF ones?

We were told the whole idea of the move was to no longer have HTML and only have PDF.
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 10 of 60 (858 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Hi:

> Dennis: I think I've already raised these concerns from the other thread?

Yes, you said you did and I believe you. *However* until there is an official response I think it is fair to continue to highlight this discussion in these Forums. After all, Torsten saw fit to do just that.

> JRF: When can we expect to see PDF files with embedded hyperlinks?

> Dennis: When this was first proposed, I didn't even know you could do this. But I was shown an example.

Yes, I pointed that out originally and it makes me believe that the webmasters have absolutely no understanding of how the documents they control are used. The more education the better.

> JRF: When can we see HTML documents side-by-side with PDF ones?

> Dennis: We were told the whole idea of the move was to no longer have HTML and only have PDF.

Now that's the first time that I have heard that! Why? Who said? Does this community have a vote it that? Gaining information like this is *exactly why* I wanted to "chime-in" again.

Regards!

...JRF...
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Valued Contributor
stephen peng
Posts: 597
Registered: ‎05-24-2004
Message 11 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

my English is poor, but I can feel the inconvenience that docs transfer from docs.hp.com to BSC.
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Honored Contributor
Denver Osborn
Posts: 1,749
Registered: ‎06-23-2000
Message 12 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

I agree. The new layout sucks. If HP's going to migrate from docs.hp.com to bsc it should have been an improvement. Hell, they'd have been better off to migrated stuff off of bsc and over to the docs.hp.com format. Maybe HP should acquire a company that focuses on web design.
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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 13 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>until there is an official response I think it is fair to continue to highlight this discussion in these Forums.

I was just mentioning I wasn't going to report it another time. And I have pointed to both threads if they want to collect more feedback.

(I have mentioned to them that if you sort alphabetically, you better use numeric formated dates in titles.)

Though a better feedback path is to use the URL on the bottom of the docs page:
http://docs.hp.com/#moreinfo

>the webmasters have absolutely no understanding of how the documents they control are used.

I think the new format is all automated.

>Now that's the first time that I have heard that!

Did you read the 21 page PDF (dated April) there? Slide 15.
All documents will be in PDF file type only (no html)
And they mention: How to contact us

>Does this community have a vote it that?

Possibly, if enough people provide feedback there.
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 14 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Hi (again):

> Dennis: Did you read the 21 page PDF (dated April) there? Slide 15. All documents will be in PDF file type only (no html) And they mention: How to contact us

Thank you for this information. I have to believe that I never did, since I don't remember this statement heretofore. While I was aware of the on-going migration and the fact that it took more than a year (?), I paid scant attention to the new structure as the non-HP-UX portions were converted. I assumed (yes, that's a stupid thing) that at the end of the migration, things would be available in the forms and with the usability that they had been. I think that we might have raised our collective voices much, much sooner had we been aware of the impending loss of functionality.

> ME: Does this community have a vote it that?

>> Dennis: Possibly, if enough people provide feedback
there.

I have already, privately communitated everything said here, too. I hope that the techniccal folks within HP (like yourself) will continue to use your own internal channels.

Regards!

...JRF...
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Honored Contributor
Denver Osborn
Posts: 1,749
Registered: ‎06-23-2000
Message 15 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

It's unfortunate that everything will only be available in PDF and not HTML. The HTML format is an easy way to quickly browse through several manuals while looking for information relevant to what I'm working on at the time. Now if I'm troubleshooting and need to reference a manual, chances are good that I'd end up downloading >20M worth of PDFs just so I could search their contents.

I wonder what kind of impact this will have when searching "Manuals, guides, reference documents" from the ITRC's Search Knowledgebase link. Will search relevance be based on the contents of a PDF?
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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,750
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 16 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

>Denver: I wonder what kind of impact this will have when searching "Manuals, guides, reference documents" from the ITRC's Search Knowledgebase link.

Hmm. The slides above mention using google as not having problems.
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 17 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Hi (again):

Here's another observation. In my opinion, a valuable set of metadata has been lost.

If you look for the "When_Good_Disks_Go_Bad" document in the list of 11iv3 manuals, you see a URL with the aforementioned string. Wonderful. If you follow that URL, though, you get a meaningless:

http://bizsupport1.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01911837/c01911837.pdf

Originally if you followed the URL you saw:

http://docs.hp.com/en/5991-1236/When_Good_Disks_Go_Bad_WP.pdf

Why the change, HP? Was any user-acceptance testing ever done? Did the web designers consider *how* the documentation might be used? For example, in this case on an Apple using the intrinsic 'Preview' you see "c01911837" in your download stack. Now open (download) a couple of other documents and see how cumbersome it is not having a decent title!

...JRF...
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Acclaimed Contributor
Torsten.
Posts: 23,128
Registered: ‎10-02-2001
Message 18 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

As said, IMHO a very bad decision.


I want to have docs.hp.com and the HTML format back.


It was *much* better.


Hope this helps!
Regards
Torsten.

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Community Manager
Kevin_Paul
Posts: 943
Registered: ‎09-16-2005
Message 19 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

I wanted to pass along a brief statement I received from the team that's responsible for the docs.hp.com transition - I realize it's not going to speak to everyone's specific concerns, but please be assured that the team is looking at this thread and appreciates the input.

"HP has taken your manpage access feedback and is working aggressively on a more modular and faster access solution.

More info to come later this year."
I work for HP.
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Acclaimed Contributor
Torsten.
Posts: 23,128
Registered: ‎10-02-2001
Message 20 of 60 (840 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Thank you Kevin.


I will keep this thread open and I will watch the doc pages.

Please keep us informed.



What I also sorely miss is the "What's new" section from docs.hp.com ...
http://docs.hp.com/en/new.html

Hope this helps!
Regards
Torsten.

__________________________________________________

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Honored Contributor
P Muralidhar Kini
Posts: 897
Registered: ‎03-14-2010
Message 21 of 60 (839 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

I also agree.
With docs.hp.com, it was easy to navigate and get to the required document.
With BSC, doing the same thing is very difficult.

Good to know, somebody is working on it and hopefully they would make it as
good as docs.hp.com interface it not better.

Regards,
Murali
Let There Be Rock - AC/DC
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Community Manager
Kevin_Paul
Posts: 943
Registered: ‎09-16-2005
Message 22 of 60 (839 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

While we're on this topic, I wanted to call everyone's attention to a document that's recently been updated, which provides some detail about the docs.hp.com transition - not sure if there's anything here new to the people who have posted here already, but just in case...

http://docs.hp.com/en/moving.pdf
I work for HP.
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 23 of 60 (839 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Hi Kevin:

With regard to the document detailing the docs.hp.com transition - I've seen earlier versions before.

I regret to say, in my opinion, that it does nothing to obviate the complaints about format that have been made here, privately and via other normal HP channels.

I don't recall being asked or surveyed and I frankly don't believe that any input from the user community before the fact would have made much difference to the outcome. I suspect that internal HP folks find the new, improved documentation website a step in the wrong direction too.

Regards!

...JRF...
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Honored Contributor
Michael Leu
Posts: 508
Registered: ‎01-17-2005
Message 24 of 60 (839 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

IMHO it was good idea to consolidate everything onto one platform. Because now I hope the HP-UX doc team can convince the ex Compaq doc team that their beloved BSC needs some improvements.
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 25 of 60 (839 Views)

Re: an excellent resource replaced by worst - docs.hp.com vs. BSC

Hi (again):

I want to add another reason why I consider the availability of *both* PDF and HTML formats invaluable --- speed.

If we have an HTML document (and the manpages were the most elegant demonstration), the fetch time is very small in order to be able to see a table of contents with hyperlinks to individual sections, chapters or pages. This enables one to open a document; scan a small amount of downloaded material; and decide that either the document is or is not what is wanted.

Having to download an entire PDF manual just to ascertain that its the "right" one is a waste of time and bandwidth on both the client and the server.

No, I do not generally locally store copies of PDFs. I *always* want to be able to fetch the latest version of anything available without thought.

Lastly, I have a gut feeling that the access speeds to the "new" documentation are quite a bit slower than to the "old". I have no empirical evidence for this and this reaction may indeed be based on my annoyance to the "improvements" thus far made.

I expect better of HP.

Regards!

...JRF...
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