Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010 (100 Views)
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
Registered: ‎06-03-2003
Message 76 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

an item on the HP opensource porting systems

http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=10/06/02/1513268


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Trusted Contributor
Doug Phillips
Posts: 287
Registered: ‎02-25-2004
Message 77 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

ian>>If you email openvms.programs at hp asking about the opensource porting systems they can tell you more.
>>

More about the new patch restriction policy? Seems a bit strange.

Here's an interesting exercise:

go here:
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/index.html

Look down the left frame under "OpenVMS Software," find "Software Licensing" and click that link. Isn't that informative?

Now, pick a recent OpenVMS SPD and find the link for licensing information. Look familiar?

I haven't tried the SPD's other suggestion to "contact your local HP sales office" for licensing information but based upon my past experience with doing that I'll pass for now.
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
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Message 78 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

Doug - if you mean does reporting broken links via http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_business.html work then yes it does.
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Steven Schweda
Posts: 9,084
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Message 79 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

> [...] yes it does.

I've had such "feedback" forms send my
complaints into the Memory Hole in recent
times. Have they (all) been fixed?

> [...] the HP opensource porting systems

Great. And if I didn't need a big pile of
assorted infrastructure to get anything done,
then it might be more practical to walk up to
some virgin system somewhere and try to "port
and test Open Source applications". The
reason I bought IA64 systems was not that the
old TestDrive systems satisfied my every need
(until they disappeared).
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
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Message 80 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

Steven, have you looked at the HP Open Source porting systems which are now available?
If you have and they do not meet your requirements then perhaps something could be done about that.
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Doug Phillips
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Message 81 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

> reporting broken links

It seems odd to me that every link I can find to licensing information is "broken." The "broken" page does not display a 404 but says "we're very sorry" and offers links to Software License Manager pages. Sorry, indeed.

If I thought I was the only one to discover that the licensing documents were no longer accessible and that no one at HP knew, I might report it. There is software available that checks for broken links, but the links are not "broken" because they point to a valid page.

I keep asking this, but does anyone have a working link to an official document that details the change in patching policy and how the public can continue to get security patches? I still only find brief blurbs that just say that access to HP's patch distribution service has been restricted.
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
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Message 82 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

The FAQ is still the only public document

http://www.itrc.hp.com/service/cki/docDisplay.do?docLocale=en&docId=emr_na-c02476621

and as far as I can tell all patches including security patches are subject to the same access policy.

If you want official answers then contact HP officially.
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Doug Phillips
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Message 83 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

Re the FAQ: Those aren't the questions most frequently asked here or any other place where this policy change is being discussed.
And, the Answer to "Why is HP making this change?" is pure mumble with little basis in fact.

>> If you want official answers then contact HP officially. [Operators are standing by!]

Cost of publishing an official policy statement: $

Cost of answering who knows how many phone inquiries and pissing off customers because the person who answers the phone has no clue about what your asking: $$$

On a scale of 0 - 10, 10 being highest:

My need for patches: 10
My need for any other OpenVMS support: 0
My satisfaction with past experiences contacting HP about anything OpenVMS without having a support agreement number to reference: 0
My confidence that HP understands or cares about the needs of OpenVMS' small users: 0

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Steven Schweda
Posts: 9,084
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Message 84 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

> Steven, have you looked at the HP Open
> Source porting systems which are now
> available?

Other than looking at that openvms.org story,
no.

> If you have and they do not meet your
> requirements then perhaps something could
> be done about that.

I have not formally determined my
requirements. Until the withdrawal of patch
access, my requirements were being met by my
own systems, so there was no need to assemble
such a list. From my memory of using the
TestDrive systems, the typical shortcomings
included:

Missing freeware (MMK, Zip+UnZip, gzip,
bzip2, cURL, m[un]pack, VMSTAR, wget, GNU bc,
diff, patch, ... ). Typically, multiple
versions of those. Setting this all up on
some remote system would be a big job. (A
whole lot of work, just to get back to what I
already have where I am.)

Missing privileges.

Missing e-mail access.

Limited network access.

Missing peripheral hardware. It's hard to do
any testing of a program like cdrecord on a
remote system which lacks a CD/DVD-writing
drive (and a helpful operator with a ready
supply of discs).

Missing multiple OS and compiler versions.

No VAX hardware.


Perhaps I have an inflated sense of
self-importance, but I'd've figured that my
contributions to the VMS ecosystem were worth
enough to justify my continued access to OS
updates and patches for the systems where
I've been doing the work. It's not entirely
clear to me why I would want to bother
jumping through a variety of hoops -- new
hoops -- to continue to do what I have been
doing. I don't deny getting some benefit
from the Hobbyist license program, but,
really, who's doing whom a favor here?
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Honored Contributor
Steven Schweda
Posts: 9,084
Registered: ‎02-23-2005
Message 85 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

> And, the Answer to "Why is HP making this
> change?" is pure mumble with little basis
> in fact.

I suspect that there's a secret school
somewhere where marketing people are taught
how to write an effective (that is,
content-free, but euphonious) "to serve you
better" explanation. Like, for example, "For
your convenience, we've trimmed those bulky
4.5-inch wide bathroom tissue [toilet paper]
rolls down to a more convenient four-inch
width." It's probably the same place where
people are taught to substitute "issue" for
"problem", or "guest" for "customer".

It does lead one to wonder how low an opinion
the authors have of the intelligence of the
target audience. Perhaps they believe that
if they can fool themselves, then they can
fool anyone else the same way. There is some
evidence that they're not entirely wrong.
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
Registered: ‎06-03-2003
Message 86 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

Steven,
do contact openvms.program @ hp about getting access to the current systems so you can have a look.

Who have you contacted in HP regarding access to patches?
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
Registered: ‎06-03-2003
Message 87 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

To contact HP Services sales about software support including access to patches then

http://www.hp.com/large/contact/enterprise/index.html?key=1-1D8NV&mcc=DNTZ

or if in USA call: 800-277-8988
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Steven Schweda
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Message 88 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

> do contact openvms.program @ hp about
> getting access to the current systems so
> you can have a look.

It's hard to imagine how any small collection
of remote systems would be close to as useful
as my current local junk collection.

(Some of those projected CRTL enhancements
did sound interesting. Shared memory and
UNIX sockets were among the big impediments
when I looked at BOINC a few years ago.
Remember SETI@home? Whether I'll still care
by the time they arrive is an open question.)

> Who have you contacted in HP regarding
> access to patches?

I replied to the message quoted above (Mon,
18 Oct 2010 04:04:10 -0500 (CDT)), expressing
my disappointment, and asking about cost.
I'm still waiting for a reply.

That conversation actually started back
around 20-AUG-2010, when I submitted a
complaint about MMS V3.9-00 to the
black-hole "HP OpenVMS product business
feedback" Web form, followed a few days later
by e-mail to OpenVMS.Programs to see if that
would work any better than the Web form.
(I also offered some suggestions involving
kit packaging, and the benefits of using less
obsolete Info-ZIP software. And a complaint
about some very badly formatted (and/or
content-free) ".txt" files in the FTP patch
collection. Naturally, those lame ".txt"
files don't bother me much now.)

Around 24-AUG-2010, I started trying to learn
if there would be any way to gain
"Non-Commercial/Hobbyist access to VMS
product and patch kits (and those for Tru64
and HP-UX, too)". After sending a What's-up?
message on 5-OCT-2010, I got that
above-quoted response. I can forward to you
the whole dreary e-mail trail, if think that
your mood is currently too cheery.
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Trusted Contributor
Keith Cayemberg
Posts: 58
Registered: ‎12-28-2003
Message 89 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

>> reporting broken links

>I keep asking this, but does anyone have a
>working link to an official document that
>details the change in patching policy and
>how the public can continue to get security
>patches? I still only find brief blurbs that
>just say that access to HP's patch
>distribution service has been restricted.

Hi Doug,

I do find the blocked historic license content in the Internet Archive...

<>

Cheers!

Keith Cayemberg




Keith Cayemberg
Consultant
Wipro Technologies
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
Registered: ‎06-03-2003
Message 90 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

Steven, I did email sms at antinode so you should have my email address.
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Ian Miller.
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Message 91 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

regarding the pointer to OpenVMS licensing information.

the page is now at
http://slmprovip.atlanta.hp.com/slm/swl/view.slm?page=index

and the link on tje licensing.hp.com site will be updated.
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Doug Phillips
Posts: 287
Registered: ‎02-25-2004
Message 92 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

>>the page is now at

Not any real licenses on those pages; just generic glossary-type term definitions and general overviews, references to documents that are not on-line and instructions to contact HP for more information. (and the site is pathetically slow and at times no-responsive -- not very impressive for a technology company)

>>the link on tje licensing.hp.com site will be updated.

I hope that the page pointed to by that link will be what's updated, or redirected at least, since it would be hard to change everyone's copy of the SPD's which point to that page.

I was looking for pages such as these:

http://www-03.ibm.com/software/sla/sladb.nsf

http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualProperty/UseTerms/Default.aspx

Looking at the hard-copy I have for the (old) VMS versions I've actually bought (new or as a transfer) I find wording that says the customer may "load, install, enable, copy, transmit and modify Software only as necessary to exercise its rights to execute and access Software."

Sounds to me like if I have a patch that fixes an execute or access problem, I can apply it. Past policy was that it didn't matter where you got the patch, as long as it was the actual unmodified patch you could legally apply it.

Way-back when patches came on TK50's and such, it was SOP to only get one copy and to share that tape with other licensed friends. As long as your product version was licensed, you could patch it.

Again, I find nothing that restricts the application of patches. The published new policy restriction says that HP will only provide their patch *distribution* service to support agreement holders. Having access to HP's patch distribution service would be a convenience, but the policy does not place a restriction on the application of patches and the licenses I have give me the right to make my legally licensed versions work correctly. I suppose the lawyers are working on that, though.

Need for patches: 10
Need for any other OpenVMS support: 0
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HP Pro
Ian Miller.
Posts: 4,370
Registered: ‎06-03-2003
Message 93 of 93 (100 Views)

Re: Change to Patch services effective September 18, 2010

the licensing web site is in the process of being updated.
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