Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water (905 Views)
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Honored Contributor
Hein van den Heuvel
Posts: 6,585
Registered: ‎05-19-2003
Message 1 of 23 (982 Views)

Throw out the baby with the bath water

 

My informal, highly subjective, quit possibly biased, observations of new-topic rate and reply-rate in the Operating-Systems corner of the world suggests the HP managed to throw away the baby with the bathwater (1)

 

Maybe areas other than HPUX, OpenVMS, Linux,... do better ?!

 

Kindly prove me wrong ?!

 

Please show me the official numbers 4 weeks before, and 4 weeks after the change.

- new topic rate for a week

- reply rate for a week.

- number of distinct authors of new topics

- number of distinct authors of replies.

 

Best regards,

Hein

 

(1) "an avoidable error in which something good is eliminated when trying to get rid of something bad, or in other words, rejecting the essential along with the inessential."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw_out_the_baby_with_the_bath_water

 

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Honored Contributor
Steven Schweda
Posts: 9,084
Registered: ‎02-23-2005
Message 2 of 23 (966 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,963
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 3 of 23 (964 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

>observations of new-topic rate and reply-rate in the Operating-Systems 

 

This has gone way down even in the ITRC since the beginning of the year.

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Outstanding Contributor
Pete Randall
Posts: 16,205
Registered: ‎11-03-1996
Message 4 of 23 (952 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

Unfortunately the only such statistics ever published came from Merijn.  You can see some statistics for the old ITRC on his site (http://www.cmve.net/~merijn/#Statistics), but Merijn notes "ITRC forum statistics ended on 22 June 2011 as the forum moved to an inferior new passport controlled site."

 

Given HP's reluctance to be forthcoming with much of any information other than "shut up and like it" [sic], I highly doubt that we will be seeing any current stats either.

 

I do agree, however, that traffic seems to be way down.


Pete
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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 5 of 23 (947 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

Hi Hein:

 

I couldn't agree with you more.  Again, I applaud your directness and the professional manner in which you apply it.  Are you listening HP?

 

The structure of the old ITRC was simple and intuitive.  The structure of the old HP documentation was simple and intuitive.  Now we need vitural manuals to figure out how to use, let alone find, something.

 

Things like the HP GEMS and the pretty pictures on the are marketing (branding) banter and in my opinion do not belong on what is purported to be a community forum.  Move the stuff to one of your other (hidden) websites.

 

The internal search provided works better than the old ITRC internal search but is still a joke.  One can already see questions that have been answered tens or hundreds of times being asked again.  How can any of us say "Is your search ability broken?"

 

Sorry, HP, you solicited our opinions but I don't believe you listened to very much of the feedback that was offered (either directly or via consultants you hired).

 

Regards!

 

...JRF...

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,963
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 6 of 23 (933 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

[ Edited ]

>Now we need virtual manuals to figure out how to use, let alone find, something.

 

What, google hasn't started working after all this time?  :-)

 

>Things like the HP GEMS and the pretty pictures on the are marketing (branding) banter and in my opinion do not belong on what is purported to be a community forum.

 

(Hey, I have to work with several of those guys, be nice.  :-)

One of the guys there was even asking me about the new forums recently.

 

>Move the stuff to one of your other (hidden) websites.

 

The videos are there, only that picture and ad are on the forum.

 

>One can already see questions that have been answered tens or hundreds of times being asked again. 

 

I would first assume laziness by the user, rather than search issues.  I don't see many users say they bothered searching.

 

Or did you want to change the New Message button to say "Did you try searching first?"?

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Outstanding Contributor
Pete Randall
Posts: 16,205
Registered: ‎11-03-1996
Message 7 of 23 (930 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

> I would first assume laziness by the user, rather than search issues.  I don't see many users say they bothered searching.

 

And they never did before (in the ITRC, that is).


Pete
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Respected Contributor
Brad McCusker
Posts: 285
Registered: ‎05-01-2003
Message 8 of 23 (919 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

I've been a bit too busy over the past few months to take the time to figure these new forums out.  But, earlier today I had a question that I needed answered and that forced me to bite the bullet. 

 

It was very disappointing to see how little activity there is in these new forums.  Hein - we don't need to see the statistics you asked for, it's very obvious that the use of these new forums is a fraction of the old forums.   In fact over in the VMS forums, I'll bet you could do the counting yourself in just a few minutes time.   

 

IMO, part of the problem is the usability - I found it to be intimidating which is why I didn't bother to figure it out until I needed to do so.  I'm thinking of putting together a brief session for the OpenVMS bootcamp on how to use these new forums.  The idea would be to help "break the ice" in the hope of sparking some more users to start using them. 

 

Has there been any "training" or "how to" information posted anywhere?

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Acclaimed Contributor
James R. Ferguson
Posts: 21,184
Registered: ‎07-06-2000
Message 9 of 23 (911 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water


Brad McCusker wrote:

Has there been any "training" or "how to" information posted anywhere?


I suppose you could consider the "HELP" link (at the top right where you sign-out) to be the official manual. 

 

Then too, there are a few HP-supplied "Tips and Tricks" (in the Welcome to the Community) section:

 

http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Tips-and-Tricks/bd-p/tips_and_tricks

 

Good Luck & Regards!

 

...JRF...

 

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Regular Advisor
TomSmith
Posts: 76
Registered: ‎06-29-2011
Message 10 of 23 (905 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

"Throwing the baby out with the bath water" describes this situation perfectly.  It is clear that the folks at HP who gave this disaster the green light did not understand what made the old ITRC valuable. (Or if they did they ignored it) Yes the old ITRC forum had some warts, but on the whole it was an incredibly useful tool. More importantly, the people who contributed to the site were it's biggest asset. 

 

By replacing it with "Lithium", HP did away with one asset, and the other seems to be eroding away quickly.

 

Disappointing that HP has had zero comment on this.

 

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Occasional Advisor
gstanden
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎07-02-2011
Message 11 of 23 (894 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

Hi,

 

Found my trove of bookmarked posts from the old world.  You should be able to also.  Go to this link:

 

http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message#/?page=4&author_id=868594&search_type=thr...

 

search "by author".  If you put in your last name it should bring up your handle(s) select one and voila!  I have found my treasure!

 

HTH,

Gil

Gilbert Standen
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Occasional Advisor
gstanden
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎07-02-2011
Message 12 of 23 (892 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

I can't help but add that this new forum software has without a doubt the weirdest and most utterly hideous avatars which are so utterly bland and without meaning that I am still laughing so hard at how appallingly awful the avatars are that I think I shall be laughing all night.

 

I switched from the "bronze pig animal" to the "box of french fries" which at least has some vague relation to "adult swim"

 

Gil

 

still laughing so hard at how appallingly bad this website is in terms of look and feel and avatars.  I cannot remotely imagine who, at the conference table, said "let's deploy THIS product to replace HP ITRC Forums" to which images of ED-309 come to mind, vis-a-vis the test in the conference room which went wrong.  I'll take ol' RoboCop anyday...

Gilbert Standen
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Occasional Advisor
gstanden
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎07-02-2011
Message 13 of 23 (888 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

Sorry I could have given this cleaner URL to use:

http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message
Gilbert Standen
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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,963
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 14 of 23 (877 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

>how appallingly bad this website is in terms of look and feel and avatars.

 

At a certain rank, you can upload and use your own, with approval.

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Outstanding Contributor
Pete Randall
Posts: 16,205
Registered: ‎11-03-1996
Message 15 of 23 (869 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

[ Edited ]

> At a certain rank, you can upload and use your own, with approval.

 

I had no idea you had to be "special" to change your avatar!  And I don't recall any approval delay either - it happened instantaneously when I did it.


Pete
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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,963
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 16 of 23 (863 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

>I had no idea you had to be "special" to change your avatar!  And I don't recall any approval delay either

 

You're super special?  :-)

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Outstanding Contributor
Pete Randall
Posts: 16,205
Registered: ‎11-03-1996
Message 17 of 23 (861 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

> You're super special?  :-)

 

And you're absolutely correct to put a question mark after that comment!!


Pete
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Regular Advisor
TomSmith
Posts: 76
Registered: ‎06-29-2011
Message 18 of 23 (846 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

On my first visit to the new community I asked how I could get rid of my stupid avatar, and the answer I received was "Oh just put in a URL to a blank image". When I tried, I discovered that I was unable to add a URL, could only pick from the list. After complaining, I was given the "right" to enter a URL for my avatar.

 

What a mess.

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,963
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 19 of 23 (815 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

>It is clear that the folks at HP who gave this disaster the green light did not understand what made the old ITRC valuable.

 

Well the Lithium conversion was already done for BSC, HP SSC, CSC and  webOS SC.

So if the ITRC can be combined with the first two, it must make sense.  ;-)

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Acclaimed Contributor
Dennis Handly
Posts: 24,963
Registered: ‎03-06-2006
Message 20 of 23 (807 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

[ Edited ]

>observations of new-topic rate and reply-rate

 

And observation of spam too.  There seems to be only one obnoxious person (from the ITRC too) that only spams the feedback board.

 

(He now seems to have branched out.)

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Esteemed Contributor
Greybeard
Posts: 371
Registered: ‎04-30-2008
Message 21 of 23 (781 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

In regard to statistics, it would be interesting to see if the number of revenue generating support calls logged with HP have increased due to new or infrequent visitors no longer being able to resolve issues via the community support model, if so then I'm sure HP would consider this redesign a resounding success :~)

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Regular Advisor
TomSmith
Posts: 76
Registered: ‎06-29-2011
Message 22 of 23 (757 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

Very good point.

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Respected Contributor
Nick Wickens
Posts: 527
Registered: ‎05-05-1997
Message 23 of 23 (724 Views)

Re: Throw out the baby with the bath water

Afraid I gave up on the ITRC forums some years ago when all the compaq junk was merged in - sort of gave up on hp-ux at the same time as the PA-RISC proc was sidelined.

 

Remember what happened when a lady was asked to drive the Enterprise - well that's what happened to HP. (Hey i'm over 40 I don't have to do the politically correct stuff !!)

Hats ? We don't need no stinkin' hats !!
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